Re: [MLUG - DISCUSSION] Broken Lives

["Jim Locke" <EMAIL:PROTECTED>]

If we say we'll never do torture, then I think we really OUGHT to never do torture, under any circumstances.
This is one of several reasons I have great lack of respect for George W.
I know there are normally exceptions to rules, however with this I do not feel there ought to be.
The world would be a better place if people and states were straight with people, and we're getting too far away from this ideal.

On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 3:26 AM, Michael <EMAIL:PROTECTED> wrote:

> Torture is horrible and definitely something not to be done but I can't
> agree that it should never be done under any conditions. Maybe it's use
> should end the life of whomever is doing the torture though -
> politically at least. Maybe when it'd done, as on rare occasions it
> must, then we should punish the responsible parties as if it hadn't been
> government sanctioned - charge them with a serious crime so that they
> won't use those methods without a real cause.

The usual argument is that if someone had information about an atom bomb
in NY City, it would be OK to torture that person for info about the bomb
so that we could save many lives.  I would strongly agree except for one
thing -- where is the evidence that torture will work?  As far as I know,
research shows that torture doesn't work -- people will say things that
aren't true to stop the torture.

We should always *say* that we will never do it.

In extreme cases any information is something to go on. Sometimes even tainted obviously wrong information can give you clues. Sometimes you have to do bad things for the greater good. Sometimes you have to take Ole Yellar out back and shoot him for the greater good. Being a good leader is not something that is likely to leave you with warm fuzzy feelings about yourself. It's not a job for people who always want to take the obvious moral right.

You doubt that torture works. That leads me to doubt your ability to see the obvious that as was said before everyone has a breaking point where they will give in to pain and suffering. Nobody is strong enough to never give in. And as I said before even wrong information tells you something and gives you somewhere to start. Eliminate wrong information and you start to form a picture of what the right information is. Expert torture can cause great suffering without putting you in any mortal danger so it can go on for a very long time. If you don't believe that torture works then you've obviously never been in any great amount of pain.

I agree with you in principal that we should say we'll never do torture but in practice if we are choosing a leader and torture is an issue then we need to know that our leader is man enough to do what has to be done and man enough to suffer the consequences of having done such a thing - including admitting to having done it. Of course the danger is always that wackos will start finding everything as a national security issue that requires torture. If it's not being admitted to happening then how can we police it's proper use?

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-- 
- Jim Locke.
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