Re: [MLUG - DISCUSSION] Bogus debate tactics

[Rick <EMAIL:PROTECTED>]

On Fri, 2008-01-11 at 15:47 -0600, Mike Miller wrote:
> Stephen can send this to Justin, if he wants, because I think Justin has 
> my messages going straight to /dev/null.  --Mike

> I have to wonder again what I'm being accused of here.
> 

I would hazard a guess that the accusation is for "conveniently feigned
ignorance". But that's from my perspective.

> > Firstly, taking any argument to its logical extreme is rarely going to 
> > work, so it's almost always a bullshit tactic.  Secondly, even if the 
> > question were meant in a legitimate way, that's not how it's phrased. 
> > Mike doesn't say, "So what if <extreme case>?"  NOOOO.  Mike says, "So 
> > YOU'RE SAYING THAT <extreme case>."  He takes it to the extreme AND 
> > ATTRIBUTES THAT NONSENSE TO YOU.
> 
> Is there an example of this here?...
> 
> http://mlug.missouri.edu/lists.php
> 
> I wouldn't attribute an idea to someone that I didn't think he held, or 
> that I didn't see as a logical consequence of another idea they'd already 
> presented.
> 

> 
> > It's a bullshit tactic meant to discredit rather than present any real 
> > argument.
> 
> I don't think so, but then again, I haven't seen any examples in my 
> writing of the kind of thing you are talking about.  (And I hope that 
> those of you who happen to agree with Justin for whatever reason will let 
> him show me what he's talking about instead of making suggestions of your 
> own -- but I am happy to read your suggestions either off list or after 
> Justin has told me.)
> 

This is precisely what I'm referring to when talking about "feigning
ignorance". During many discussions, when the debate begins to turn away
from you, you begin deriding the opposing side either directly or by
stating that, all of a sudden, you don't understand. 

> 
> > Keep in mind, I never said that Mike isn't intelligent.
> 
> But a fool?  Would this be an example of attributing to you an idea that 
> you do not hold?  How else was I to interpret your earlier statement about 
> suffering fools?
> 

Intelligent? Absolutely. Opinionated and blinded by your own bias? I
believe so. Made even worse by your own belief that you're so
open-minded.

> 
> > If you choose to wade through his nonsense, sometimes he makes some good 
> > points, and just because he's an ass doesn't make him wrong.
> 
> I think that what I write is never nonsense even if I might occasionally 
> err and make a false statement.  I also don't think I'm an ass.
> 
> Some people are hypersensitive and overinterpret my statements.  For 
> example, if I were to say "I don't understand your question."  That does 
> not mean that doesn't mean anything except for exactly what it says.  I am 
> not suggesting that there is some deep personal defect in the writer, just 
> that I did not understand what was written.  Usually, if you look back at 
> it, you will understand why I didn't get it, but that's up to you.
> 

And, honestly, if there were any attempt to clarify for the sake of the
debate, I'd believe this statement. But, I've seen it entirely too many
times to say that your lack of understanding is anything but a willful
act on your part when it comes to a subject you disagree with.

> Also, I don't think that it is impolite to write a terse message.  Accept 
> that for what it is.  We are all busy and I do get into a lot of different 
> things.  If my response is short it probably means that I thought the 
> issue was worth some attention but not a lot of attention, and there could 
> be hundreds of reasons why, none of which are a personal reflection on the 
> person I'm responding to.
> 
> 
> > It's not his point of view, it's his delivery.
> 
> I believe that, but I'm surprised that you find it so bothersome.  There 
> was probably some event, if we were to look back at the record of 
> correspondence, where I said something that really pissed you off a lot.
> 
> Mike

Lol, you think there was just one? 

Rick =) 

interesting threads from a google of "don't understand" + "mike miller"
+ site:mlug.missouri.edu:
http://mlug.missouri.edu/list-archives/discussion/2006-03/msg00241.php3
http://mlug.missouri.edu/list-archives/discussion/2006-01/msg00259.php3

This one has some fabulous catchphrases like "It's like you are mentally retarded..."
http://mlug.missouri.edu/list-archives/discussion/2007-03/msg00351.php3
with a fabulous followup even: 
http://mlug.missouri.edu/list-archives/discussion/2007-03/msg00352.php3

Another thread of note:
http://mlug.missouri.edu/list-archives/discussion/2007-09/msg00117.php3

-- 
http://xkcd.com/368/
Okay, now throw the switch labelled "Macarena"


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