Re: [MLUG - DISCUSSION] [POLITICS][RELIGION] Billy Graham and the Presidents

[Stephen Montgomery-Smith <EMAIL:PROTECTED>]

Mike Miller wrote:
> On Sun, 2 Sep 2007, Stephen Montgomery-Smith wrote:
>
> > Dash it all - I will bite.
>
> I could tell you were going to crack!
>
>
> > But not to argue your point, just to educate you on a bit of theology.
> >
> > The notion that God chooses presidents has nothing to do with whether 
> > the presidents pay lip service to serving God or not.  Rather it is 
> > standard Augustinian/Calvinist theology that states that all things 
> > that happen are according to God's will, and serve his purpose.
>
> The show didn't indicate that God's choice was motivated by the 
> candidates' conduct, speeches or beliefs.  Billy Graham was surprised 
> and disappointed when Carter beat Ford -- he'd been working mostly with 
> Ford -- but he'd also befriended Carter years earlier.
>
>
> > That all authority comes from God is clearly stated in Romans 13:1. 
> > This applies even to the most wicked leadership such as Nero or Saddam 
> > Hussein.
>
> Apparently, this is what the Bible says in Romans 13:1:
>
>     Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there
>     is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities
>     that exist have been established by God.
>
> Putting that together with what you are saying, this means that in 
> Christian theology, God gave Hitler his authority and by following 
> Hitler, the Nazi soldiers were following the will of God.  That's pretty 
> sick and crazy in my book.  I know there are plenty of good things in 
> Christianity, but this kind of authoritarianism isn't one of them.
>
>
> > See also 2 Kings 19:25 (and the surrounding verses to understand the 
> > context).
>
> That's a little harder to understand!

Maybe so.  But this verse, and indeed the surrounding story, give a lot 
of the nuances that you need to understand Romans 13:1.  Your 
interpretation of Romans 13:1 is essentially correct.  Nevertheless this 
does not conflict with the notion that what Hitler and the Nazis did was 
very wicked and wrong.

Really, you need to read some good books on the subject.  I learned a 
lot of this from a book "Systematic Theology" by Charles Hodge.  I 
followed an abridged version in a course I was taking.  But the book in 
its entirety seems to be available on-line.

However friends of mine speak very highly of the book "Systematic 
Theology" by Wayne Grudem.  This seems to be an easier read than the 
Princetonian 19th century three volume work by Hodge.  Grudem's book 
earns high scores at amazon.com.

http://www.amazon.com/SYSTEMATIC-THEOLOGY-Introduction-Biblical-Doctrine/dp/0310286700

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