Re: [MLUG - DISCUSSION] [POLITICS] letter from Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

["Vern Green" <EMAIL:PROTECTED>]

> > Well lets see, this morning before I left for work the news reported 
> > that yet another Palestinian rocket landed in Isreal, once again
> > violating the cease fire that has been in effect. I say once again,
> > because there have been 14 other such attacks since the proclaimed cease 
> > fire. 
> http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L01586509.htm talks about
> > what I saw this morning, some of the details might not be included. 
>
> I guess they shouldn't fight it -- just accept their Israeli overlords.
> If a foreign government occupied your town and set up roadblocks to stop
> you from simply driving to work without stopping to answer a few 
> questions, maybe you would start throwing bombs too.  According to the
> article at the URL you sent:

 

Well then who is at fault here? The Israeli people who were promised and given this land after World War 2, or the UN body that actually gave it to them? Those are the only choices, because if you recognize Israel as a sovereign nation, you have to respect the Isreali leadership and their right to defend the country.
 

>    Israel maintains a network of roadblocks in the territory that
>    restricts Palestinian travel between West Bank cities. Palestinians and 
>    many foreign nations and human rights groups accuse Israel of
>    collective punishment.

 

Yeah, well when you don't know who is going to drop a bomb on you next, you have to deal with this kind of thing. If the palestinians don't want to deal with the roadblocks, then stop attacking Isreal. On another note, I suppose because I have to go through metal detectors at the airport, or because I have to go through the sobriety check point on a Saturday night that I too could complain of collective punishment.

 

> > Additionally, they reported that a palestinian who was throwing molatove
> > cocktails at israeli troops was shot and killed. 
>
> Yet another Palestinian freedom fighter killed by the Israeli occupation
> forces.  You should know that the maltreatment of Palestinians by Israel
> has gone so far that *many* Israelis, even Israeli soldiers think it is 
> unjust.

 

Yeah, nice statement, where are the facts? Where did you get this information? Show me some articles. Nice statement, based in what? Interesting use of terminology too.

 

>  Of course, the Palestinian cause has galvanized the Islamic world
> and is perhaps the #1 cause of increasing Islamic hostility toward the US. 
> It is always sited by our major enemies, like Osama Bin Laden, as his
> major reason for attacking the West.

 

Yeah, I would agree with that, afterall, if my goal was to defeat the infidels, then I too would want the US to not support Isreal. I would have little chance defeating them if it wasn't for US involvement. I also think this is a little self-serving, certainly if the US stopped supporting Isreal tomorrow, what would be the next reason for hating the US? There would be one of course.
 

> > The writer of this letter says that Palestinians have been driven from
> > their homes, but just last year thousands of Jews were uprooted from 
> > their homes in order to give more land to the Palestinian people.
>
>
>
> How nice of them.  It must have been hard for them to stop killing people
> in exchange for a mere promise.  Maybe not every Palestinian felt as 
> grateful as he should have.

 

Well again, what caused those five month long attacks? Was it possibly because the Palestinians continued to drop rockets on Isreal after the first time they promised to stop?

 

> > The again, last night I was reading a story about how they were finding
> > brand new weapons straight from the Iranian factories in the hands of
> > the insurgents in Iraq. 
> > http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=302
>  It is very
> > convenient for the writer to say that the US administration is lieing, 
> > but everyday our troops as well as Iraqi civilians are being killed by
> > weapons coming across the Iraq border from other countries, Iran
> > included.
>
> Where do most of the world's weapons come from?  Unfortunately, the US 
> really has no basis for criticizing other nations.  Many of the weapons
> used against us in Iraq were made by us.  Same in Afghanistan.

 

OK, but then the statement on how the violence is continuing in Iraq is at least partly being supported by the very person complaining about it.

 

"Although Saddam was overthrown and people are happy about his departure, the pain and suffering of the Iraqi people has persisted and has even been aggravated."

 

If nothing else this is a true statement, that pain and suffering is being supported by his country by sending arms in.

 

> > So yes, on the surface there are a number of inconsistencies to me that 
> > indicates many of the things written in this letter are patently false.
>
> Sorry, are you saying that you showed that above?  Please, if you want to
> show that what someone said was "patently false," just show us what was 
> said (quote it), then show us the evidence.  As it stands, I have no idea
> what you think he said that was false.

 

Sure, when you supply evidence of your outlandish statements, then I will quote each and every inconsistency from the writer of this.

 

> > I have not looked into Carter's claims as they are largely
> > inconsequential anyway. 
>
> Right.  He has only 30 years of experience working on middle east peace at
> the highest levels of government.  If Rush Limbaugh says "ignore him" I
> follow Rush's orders.

 

Whatever, I never knew Rush said that, but I will take your word for it.

 

> > Carter had his chance.. on more than one occasion to end the conflict in 
> > that region and he was unable to do it.
>
> Yep, and you've had your chance to make some sense, and you were unable to
> do it.  Call me when you have joined Carter by providing some evidence
> that you have done something worthwhile, e.g., winning the Nobel Peace
> Prize (Carter won in 2002):

 

Well great, Carter did such a fine job, what the heck are we having this discussion about then?

> > What I cannot do is blame Isreal for their actions when the Iranian
> > backed group kidnapped the isreali soldier.
>
> How ridiculous.  Do you even know what happened?

 

Yeah, I do know what happened. Do you? Try reading up on it. Then connect a few dots.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/06/26/wmid26.xml

 

The soldier was kidnapped by Hamas, who backs Hamas? Iran and Syria do.

 

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=50793

So again, the writer wants to put on this air of asking for peace, yet his actions seem to suggest he does not want peace at all. You have addressed that one single issue, since you can't really defend your position against that, you have to resort to attacking me. Typical move on your part Mike.

 

> > The notion of "Very Soon, This Stain of Disgrace [i.e. Israel] Will
> > Vanish from the Center of the Islamic World - and This is Attainable"".
> > Those words were penned by the very same person that wrote the letter to 
> > the American people is not a concept that a peace loving benevolent
> > leader would be saying if he really meant it.
>
> The Israelis are turning the world more and more against them.  Even the
> Israeli people are furious about what Israel did after the soldier was 
> kidnapped and their subsequent extreme reaction in Lebanon.  It was crazy.

 

Where is the evidence Mike? How do you know this?

> > Frankly, I don't know what the 9,000 people in Israel are being held
> > for, likely even the Iranian president does not know. But if those 
> > people were instrumental in causing or harboring terrorist attacks
> > against Israel, then they are being held for a damn good reason.
>
> OK.  Which Israelis should be held by the Lebanese for their recent 
> attacks on Lebanon?  Is that not "terrorism" because it was organized by a
> military force?  Suppose you don't have or cannot afford a military?  Are
> you then a "terrorist?"  So "terrorists" are the less powerful killing 
> fighters, and they should be captured and punished, but the more powerful
> killing fighters and dominant occupiers should not be punished?

 

However you want to try to spin it, Lebanon was attacked because there were attacks coming from within Lebanon against Isreal civilians. In order to make it stop, Isreal attacked Lebanon. Again, interestingly enough, the person you are defended had some involvement in THAT episode as well. Isreal did not invade Lebanon on a whim, nor to gain additional ground, or even to drive the Lebaneze into the ocean. They did it in an act of defense, and yes, retaliation.

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13823680/

> The US military can kill 100,000 perfectly innocent people and they will 
> never be called "terrorists," but some poor, down-trodden man with a
> bottle of gasoline trying to free his family and his neighbors from an
> occupying army is a terrorist even if he fails to kill or injure a single 
> person.  This is called doublespeak.

 

And your stance on it is idiotic.

 

How about David Koresh? I mean afterall Koresh was only defending his way of life when the ATF came knocking on his door. He had only committed the crime of owning a few unregistered weapons afterall. Why did his family and the family of his followers have to die. They never killed anyone?

I am sure Koresh felt like he was defending his family and neighbors, yet society made a ruling that their actions were not appropriate, Koresh had to abide by the laws and he did not. He had a decision to make and it is not the same decision I could have made.

 

Or how about the south in the civil war here in the United States? In your mind is it justified to attack people, destroy buildings even if you don't kill anyone in the name of your cause? Does ELF have a right to burn down houses and burn up car lots for their cause?

 

These so-called freedom fighters could have freedom if they would stop their attacks. They won't stop their attacks because they feel that Israel's land is theirs.

--
Thanks
F Vernon Green

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