Re: [MLUG - DISCUSSION] what waterboarding looks like [Politics]

[Mike Miller <EMAIL:PROTECTED>]

On Mon, 2 Oct 2006, Christian M. Cepel wrote:

> I'm going to go out on a limb here and offer my opinion that it is very 
> likely that each of these members of congress are _far_ more 
> knowledgeable on the subject than you or I and that they are certainly 
> _not_ dupes, and _not_ ignorant of what is at stake.

They know how to promote themselves -- they vote for certain things and in 
return get certain favors or avoid certain punishments.  That's how the 
game is played.


> And neither are they evil.

Some of them are evil.


> To clarify for you, the reason they should be re-elected is because they 
> _did_ vote _for_ the bill.
>
> These are people who really know what's at stake and who can actually 
> read the statutes of the Geneva convention.  While this subject is 
> uncomfortable, it is one that adults have to approach and make tough 
> decisions on... which they did.

Here are some things to consider:

(1) does torture work to extract information?
    Some experts say 'no' -- that should give you pause, at least
(2) if we announce to the world that we torture people, are we not giving
    up our right to complain when someone tortures our people?
(3) We have never had a problem interpreting the Geneva Convention, which
    was always held as almost sacred, until now.  Why now?
(4) How will "enemy combatant" be defined?
(5) If habeas corpus is to be suspended in some cases, how will we ever
    know if the detainee is being held for legitimate reasons?

Your comment about "adults" is very peculiar.  Why did you write that?  I 
don't understand your perspective.  Are you saying that people who do not 
advocate for torture are living in a children's world of fairy tales?


> I won't even classify this as torture, but rather psychological 
> manipulation and intimidation.  When I define torture, it involves 
> causing vast amounts of pain by the destruction of body elements.

So drowning you to unconsciousness, then resuscitating you and repeating 
it, over and over and over again -- that would not be torture because it 
doesn't destroy your "body elements".  If we were to apply electric shock 
to your genitals, but not enough to burn the skin off, that would not be 
torture.

I can see that you've really thought this through carefully.

Mike

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