Re: [MLUG - DISCUSSION] the Pope's remarks

[Mike Miller <EMAIL:PROTECTED>]

On Sat, 16 Sep 2006, Stephen Montgomery-Smith wrote:

> Mike Miller wrote:
>
> > You picked a good time to bring this up.  What did you think about what 
> > the Pope said the other day?  Text of his speech:
> >
> > http://www.guardian.co.uk/pope/story/0,,1873277,00.html
>
> OK, I'm rereading it more carefully, and now I am understanding it.  As 
> I see it, his main subject is that God and reason must go together. Thus 
> his remarks quoting Manuel II might more properly be seen as criticising 
> the ideas of Duns Scotus, whom as best as I can see, said that God can 
> do whatever he likes to the extent that he could have redefined good as 
> evil and vice versa.  The Pope is saying, though, that God is a 
> reasonable God (quoting for example the opening of John's Gospel - "In 
> the beginning was the word - logos", logos being a greek word that 
> translates to more than just the word "word" but to, in essence, the 
> driving force and reason behind all existence.
>
> In his speech, he is later criticising the secular point of view, that 
> defines reason as Platonic empiricism (i.e. the universe is bound by 
> intrinsic and perfect mathematical laws that we can only observe 
> empirically).  As such, along with the Muslims, the secular atheists 
> should also be going on the rampage and burning effegies of the Pope. 
> (He also gets in criticisms of the Reformation with its cry of 
> "scripture alone", so the Lutherans should also be on the rampage.  And 
> he also gets a punch in to those mystics who would essentially deny 
> reason, so "New Agers" should also be angrily demonstrating.)
>
> Basically the speech is about bringing about dialogue between culture 
> and religion, or between science and religion.  He is advocating that we 
> bring reason and theology together, and that each is poorer without the 
> other.
>
> In short, his speech being made at a university, it is a speech praising 
> the need for universities, and advocating that religion also play a part 
> in it.

OK, but the part about Islam is the part that attracted all the media 
attention.  Integrating that with what you have written above, isn't it 
fair to say that the Pope is saying that the Muslim view of God is like 
that of Duns Scotus or Ibn Hazn -- that God is not bound by reason?  I 
think he is saying that the Muslim view of God is incorrect.  And that the 
Muslims have promoted violence because they have the wrong idea about 
God's wishes for humanity.  I'm not arguing about the merits of any such 
arguments, I'm just wonder if that is what he meant to say.  It seems to 
me that he said it.  I don't think they are denying it here:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/world/4191825.html


> Anyway, his views seem very much in accord with views expressed by 
> Charles Habib Malik http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Malik.  He made 
> a very good speech entitled "The Two Tasks" which unfortunately I don't 
> seem to be able to find using google.  Mike - you should look up this 
> guy - I have a feeling you would like him.

I just read the Wikipedia entry.

Mike

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