Re: [MLUG - DISCUSSION] [RELIGION] Defining a Christian act... was Disowning Conservative Politics, Evangelical Pastor Rattles Flock

["Christian M. Cepel" <EMAIL:PROTECTED>]

Rick wrote:
> Christian M. Cepel wrote:
> > And why do folks on your side of the fence always group these two 
> > extremes together when they belong distantly apart.
>
> Precisely because of what you state below...
I don't see where you're supporting this below.  Belief in absolutes has 
nothing to do with the super-super-super majority of those in the 
anti-abortion camp and the presence of a few wackos who've taken a great 
step away from all morality whatsoever.

There is no equivalence here.  I'll restate it below, but belief in 
absolutes has no correlation with fanaticism of the type you are 
attributing to clinic bombers and the Muslim extremists (I won't say 
Islamic here as I don't believe these people represent Islam both as a 
doctrine or as a high percentage of adherents to that faith.)

I can believe all day long that for one person to premeditatively take 
the life of another is murder and that it is morally wrong.  I can 
believe that as a moral absolute.  This does not make me a fanatic. 
There is no correlation here, and it's dishonest to keep alluding to one.

> > You've been told time and time again that all but a very very small 
> > minority of those who appose abortion decry the heinous actions of 
> > those psychos who do such things that are an abomination before God.
> >
> > If you're asking how Judgment and Condemnation are a Christian act, 
> > then you've missed the point of Christianity (on certain levels) 
> > entirely.  The basis of most Christian's beliefs in The God of 
> > Abraham and Issac, His Son Jesus Christ, and his guidance to us in 
> > the form of scripture is the belief in an absolute truth.  We believe 
> > that there is absolutely one God, and that the only guidance for 
> > moral and life decisions comes from Him, and that the path to 
> > Salvation is solely through His Son.
> >
> > By this, the opposition loves to point out that Christians are:
> > a) intolerant
> > b) judgmental
> > c) condemning
> >
> > The real answer to this is, "Well Duh!"
>
> So, Christian cedes these points to the opposition =)
I don't know that you'll find many Christians, if they are really 
thinking clearly, who would NOT cede these points.  These points are 
brought up by those who oppose the faith as arguments against 
Christianity thinking that Christians would argue vociferously against 
them.  They never really bother to ask what the Christians feel about 
the topic and just assume they've pulled a zinger.   It's exactly this 
lack of understanding on the part of opposition that really motivates 
these arguments.  It's also the same lack of understanding that causes 
many Christians who aren't thinking clearly to get embarrassed and feel 
guilty and backpedal when accused of being 'intolerant', 'judgmental', 
and 'condemning'.  There's nothing to be embarrassed or guilty for.  
They believe in a moral absolute dictated by the omnipotent creator of 
the universe.  If that makes others uncomfortable, then that's just too 
bad.  That's not meant to be an 'unkind' attitude, especially when 
tempered by the love and compassion I mentioned before.  Unfortunately, 
love and compassion cannot change those absolutes.  That's why they're 
absolute.  It's not like there's a choice.

Belief in moral absolutes does not make one a fanatic.  Fanatic behavior 
by one who believes in moral absolutes makes one a fanatic.

I'd be very grateful if you'd no longer try to link the two.

To use the existing example, there are a almost complete majority of 
anti-abortion advocates who oppose the practice due to their belief that 
it violates an absolute moral truth.  The fanatics are the infinitesimal 
percentage of that group that attack and bomb.  You do your argument no 
favors to lump these together and label them all 'fanatic'.

> > When one believes in an absolute, and especially when that belief is 
> > in a God who has stated absolutely that he's absolute, there's not 
> > really any wiggle room there.
>
> And what, exactly, is the difference between someone who believes in 
> an "Christian who believe in absolute truth" and an "Islamic fanatic" 
> besides the doctrine they follow?
I believe I already addressed this.  I think it safe to say that both 
Christians and Muslims believe that their God (oh  goodness.. really... 
the same guy....  the God of Ishmael AND Issac) has dictated certain 
moral absolutes.  This makes neither Christian or Islamic fanatics.  
Now, you take those who are bombing innocents in the name of Allah, or 
those horrid people who are pushing the "God Hates Fags" agenda (or 
those bombing clinics), and you have the fanatic of both groups.

> > Ah, but you are forgetting two of God's most comforting values, those 
> > of love and compassion. (and through compassion, grace and forgiveness)
> >
> > This is the whole basis for 'hate the sin, love the sinner.'
> >
> > Someone who is leading an opening homosexual lifestyle, or chooses to 
> > have an abortion is no more or less a sinner than someone who mumbles 
> > profanity under their breath at the motorist who just cut him off.
> >
> > These people who are picketing abortion clinics are doing just that, 
> > 'hating the sin and loving the sinner'.  They believe that abortion 
> > is murder, and murder a sin and that it should not be done.  They 
> > don't hate the person who's doing it.  You might be surprised to 
> > think and realize that many of those out picketing are just as active 
> > in trying to provide loving, caring alternatives to abortions such as 
> > maternity homes and counseling centers where they are given 
> > assistance, counseling, support, and in many cases a clinic where 
> > they will be helped in all stages of pregnancy both medically and 
> > financially.  They are there after the birth as well, to assist if 
> > the mother wishes to place her child with different parents, or with 
> > things like diapers, cribs and formula and new-mother parenting 
> > skills education.  Indeed, this is why Open Arms Crisis Pregnancy 
> > Center is located less than a block kitty-corner from Planned 
> > Parenthood.
>
> And I applaud the "win them with love" approach. If it was more 
> prevalent, I'd almost begin to see it as a doctrine instead of a 
> strategy.
It is a doctrine.  It was modeled by the entire life of Christ.  As 
such, you could say the doctrine is WWJD.   It's a shame that WWJD has 
been so sorely abused that it's now almost a bad word.

> > This is a major difference between the counseling offered at PP and 
> > Open Arms.  A mother or mother-to-be is counseled by both 
> > organizations before the decision to abort or carry a baby to term.  
> > However, after an abortion, PP is not there to support and assist a 
> > mother who's just had an abortion.  Many times these women carry 
> > emotional scars for the rest of their lives.  With Open Arms, they 
> > are there after the fact with help for postpartum depression and 
> > crisis, Medicare, assistance, and such.  Places like Open Arms are 
> > even there to help those that PP has abandoned after an abortion 
> > procedure.
> >
> > How can judging an action they see as murder, and condemning the act 
> > (not the person) be a non-Christian act if the bible also judges 
> > murder to be wrong and condemns the act.  It seems that this is a 
> > very positive Christian act.  It's also a very Christian act to do 
> > the part you've left out....   loving and extending compassion to 
> > these women regardless of what their decision is.
>
> I don't know that I agree with you that *most* of these people are 
> hating the sin but not the sinner. Certainly, there are some, but to 
> hear some of the vile things these people say to girls trying to get 
> past them really, really bothers me.
I'll concede that I don't really have numbers on this, and I have a 
vested interest in this number being a very high percentage.  The people 
you mention need to be lovingly reprimanded and reminded of the love of 
Christ for all his children.  I don't deny that they are out there, and 
I am saddened because these people portray a God that doesn't exist 
within the true faith of Christianity.  It's always the case that the 
lowest minorities are the most loud and vociferous and end up doing so 
much more damage to the perception of Christianity than can really be 
fixed by the majority quietly showing the love of Christ to those around 
them.

I must say that I really believe that these "God Hates Fags" guys and 
the lunatic family that comes to campus once a year or so have made 
themselves willing tools of Satan.  Satan's priority one goal is to 
destroy God's following and to separate man from the love of God.  
Whether they believe it to be true or not is not the issue, but rather 
that their behavior works to separate man from God.

Now Rick.  If I was a fanatic, I might possibly take it upon myself to 
strike these people down and kill them as they are clearly preaching a 
false doctrine, which the new testament lists as a far greater 
transgression than simply keeping one's mouth shut (I.e., if you're 
gonna preach, it had better be correct).  However, I am not a fanatic 
and can only mourn the damage they do both to Christianity, but more 
importantly to every soul they turn away from Christ's gift of salvation.

I cannot speak for others, but to my mind the best 'picketing' that 
could be done of a place like PP would be a small discrete group of 2 or 
3 people who say nothing more than, "we can offer you alternatives and 
love".

My objection to them being funded by public funds is not something I 
would ever picket outside of the clinic where it would cause discomfort 
to the women visiting.  There are other forums to oppose this that are 
more appropriate.

I don't really understand how anybody can so readily try to group those 
who believe in absolute moral truth with fanatics.  I can believe in 
moral relativism and act fanatical about it.  The two have no real 
correlation.

> Rick

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