Re: [MLUG - DISCUSSION] [MLUG][Politics]The great immigration wash-out

[Rick <EMAIL:PROTECTED>]

Mike Miller wrote:
> Sure.  Cheap labor provides them.  Cheap illegal workers are a major 
> source of such cheap labor.  Are you just trying to waste time or are 
> you really unable to figure this out?

So you're a proponent of sweatshops and breaking the law to maintain a 
warped (in the sense of obfuscating the real cost of an item) economy? 
If it costs 200% more for a head of lettuce, do you think the lettuce 
economy is going to collapse? Are oranges going to go extinct?

> What belief is that?  I believe that we shouldn't round people up and 
> ship them out because I believe it is too expensive, not the other way 
> around.

Where are your hard numbers to support this? A quick google yields: 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/25/AR2005072501605_pf.html

Ok, so let's assume $41B per year to deport. Simply taking into account 
the estimated $8-10B per year that California claims to pay, added to 
the additional cost for the rest of the states (where supposedly %70 of 
them live), comes to roughly $34-43B per year to keep them here. If you 
then make any number of reasonable upgrades to border security, the 
influx should be decreased, lowering the deportation costs over time 
until we have a net gain.

This site has some other analysis of it that involves seizure of assets 
that I'm not entirely sure how I feel about.
http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=8387

> Of course it makes sense.  What don't you understand about it?  Maybe 
> you want them to leave, but they are making your taco or mopping your 
> floor or whatever.

No, it's circular. You say we don't want them to leave and I say we do.
I will gladly pay another $0.50 for a taco if it means that the person 
making it is a US citizen paying taxes on their wages...just like the 
rest of us.

> What would be Mexico?  I don't know what that means.

"If there were no work [in the US], [the US] would be Mexico"

> This is an important question and I don't know the answer.  Does anyone 
> have data on the cost to the government of having undocumented people 
> living here?  We have to at least subtract off the benefit to the 
> government in terms of the taxes these people pay.

$10B: http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalrelease.html
Among the largest federal costs: Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for 
the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs ($1.9 billion); 
the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to 
schools ($1.4 billion).

$7.7-9B in CA: 
http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/12/06/news/top_stories/19_56_5812_5_04.txt
Martin's study looks specifically at the costs of educating illegal 
immigrants' children, providing medical care to illegal immigrants and 
jailing those convicted of committing crimes. The report estimates the 
total cost at $10.5 billion each year, but that is offset by about $1.7 
billion in taxes that illegal immigrants pay.

> > > I know it seems simpler than it is:  "Illegal" means "illegal" after 
> > > all. But we have many years of policy that encourages people to do 
> > > what they have been doing.  The occasional amnesty proclamation tells 
> > > them "hang in there."  Isn't it ironic that the same people who talk 
> > > about rounding them up and shipping them out are also considering 
> > > giving them amnesty?  What are these poor immigrants supposed to 
> > > think?  What is the message they are hearing?
> >
> > Get the hell out?
>
> OK, but also "stay a while and you might get amnesty."  Right?  That was 
> my point.  Your inability to understand my is really surprising.  I 
> think this means that I will have to stop replying to you pretty soon 
> because you might be one of those people who just likes to annoy.

Your blatant refusal to entertain any viewpoint but your own is every 
bit as surprising. You ask what message the "poor *[illegal]* 
immigrants" are supposed to be getting to which I answer, Get the hell 
out. How is that confusing?

And you can rest assured that I *do* sometimes post just to annoy you, 
but it's usually because I feel that you're way out in left field. Most 
times I don't reply to you precisely because it almost always degrades 
into me vs you, and that doesn't really interest me.

> I think it is because I know so many immigrants and even illegal 
> immigrants.  They are among my friends here in Minneapolis.  The reason 
> that I think some of you don't know what you are talking about has 
> nothing to do with how smart I am, it has everything to do with the 
> ridiculous things you write to the list.

This makes you neither unique nor special. I've worked hand in hand with 
illegal immigrants and more than a handful of legal immigrants at 
several of my jobs over the years. I've even lived with some at one 
point. They are generally nice people and I have every reason to believe 
that if required to, the ones that actually want to be Americans would 
leave and reenter via a legal method. It strikes me as acutely ironic 
that you, of all people, would accuse me of posting ridiculous things to 
the list.

The real reason they're here is because simply crossing the border was 
the path of least resistance. It's easier than changing Mexico and it's 
easier than applying for citizenship. Make crossing harder, being here 
illegally harder still, and applying for citizenship easier, and the 
problem will solve itself.

> Mike

As I've stated before, you are welcome to not respond to anything I post 
as being base and insulting does nothing but make you look like an ass. 
I don't respond to a lot of posts you make, so feel free to return the 
favor. However, this is a discussion list. If you don't want to discuss 
it in a public forum with people that don't agree with you, perhaps you 
should consider a different forum rather than resorting to namecalling.

Rick
--
We simply can't idiot-proof everything. Sometimes the idiots just have 
to suffer and die.
--http://www.overheardintheoffice.com/

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