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Rick Buford wrote:
I was actually completely unaware of the relation to pagan holidays
before a couple of weeks ago. Perhaps I'm just a little more ignorant of
some of these topics than I thought.
Nonsense, and I apologize for implying it was so. I was ignorant of it
until several years ago when someone told me. I'll be honest, I was
actually upset until I got my mind right about it and assumed the
attitude I have now that I know a lot of my fellow believers share. I
guess I just consider it part of the patois now because I've been
hearing this horse being beaten over and over in discussions on
conservative talk radio programs by O'Reilly, Beck, O'Hannity, Boortz,
etc this last Christmas with the 'war on Christmas' *bleh*.
Just because it's been beat to death for me doesn't mean that those who
travel in different circles have the knowledge.
Again, I apologize for my attitude and implications.
As far as things being on pagan holidays specifically.... if one were
to try to apologize for all the rubbish the Catholic church has pulled
over the last two millennial, one would be apologizing pretty much
non-stop.
Were these attributed to the Church? or to the Ceasers? I get the
impression many of these were more related to the executive power's
decision than the theistic.
Your own article states that the decision on Christmas was made by the
pope in the early 4th century. Back then and until the 17th century,
the church's decision was pretty much an executive one.
The big thing Christian's are constantly having to apologize for is the
Crusades... WWJD? just wasn't a question they filtered their actions
through back then *grin*
In one sense, it was a very good PR/Propaganda/Manipulation strategy.
In another sense, people aren't the ignorant sheep they were back then
and are quick to see the dichotomy.
I might argue with the statement that "people aren't the ignorant sheep
they were back then". I think K summed it up pretty well in MiB:
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you
know it."
Fair enough. I apologized for this attitude above, but I'm less
referring in that manner, and more to the fact that the bible and
theology is now available to the laity in colloquial language. Your
association of churches can make some doctrinal declaration from on
high, but it won't last much past the first people hearing it
cross-checking it with the playbook if it's doctrinally unsound.
Questioning such things is no longer a heresy with heavy consequences.
The fact remains that Atheists/Agnostics gleefully trot out little
'factoids' like this over and over and think that it will disrupt our
world/worldview and undermine our foundation. That's simply because
they don't understand that we don't, or should not have a worldview,
but a heaven view, and things like this aren't all that important. We
are supposed to be in this world, but not of it.
I'm actually more curious, since you state prior knowledge of these
sorts of things, about whether or not you celebrate what I consider the
traditional Christmas with presents and such since those appear to be
the "pagan" parts of the tradition. If so, is it something that bothers
you at some level?
Well... many claim that the tradition of exchanging presents is
predated by the wisemen's gifts, though I think there is pagan tradition
there as well.
I've got to say, this is a subject that ebbs and flows, advances and
retreats like the tide, as most subjects are. Periodically, someone
somewhere raises a big stink about Christmas trees, and mistletoe, Santa
clauses, and various pagan adaptations. A lot of people will get
excited about it for a year or so, and then it will subside. Then a few
years later, someone else will get a bee in their bonnet and trot out
the objections like it's some new insight and get a lot of folks excited
again.
The fact remains that if you're a Christian/Jew/etc, it's between you
and your God, or your Savior (God), and what these things mean to you.
There are strong beliefs out there by small groups of people that any
written word that is not the bible, or that does not serve to directly
promote one's understanding and relationship with God, is sinful
indulgence and tools of Satan. Same goes for movies, music, etc.
So many things are open to debate, and churches that agree upon 98% of
their doctrine let the piddly 2% they don't agree with fragment them
into denominations.
I think the Christmas issue eventually comes down to what these things
mean to you and your relationship to God. Does kissing under the
mistletoe raise some barrier between you and God? Are you raising it,
or is God raising it.
One thing I think God would say about Christmas celebration is that it
is indeed a celebration, of the most amazing event/gift to touch the
earth. I don't think He's all that happy with the Joy Stealing that
some do. My mom was too upset to really honor Christ and God one
Christmas because she had hopped on the anti-Santa/tree/etc bandwagon
and was clothing herself in sackcloth and ashes (figuratively) at the
evil that's in the world. She was also distracted and actually
depressed by the position she'd taken because she of course 'loved' so
very much the traditions she'd grown up with and memories made over the
years. She'd talked herself into believing that she'd come to love
'sin', but could not purge in her heart and mind the 'love' she'd
developed over a lifetime.
If it's a hindrance, cut it off. If your right hand causes you to sin,
cut it off, etc.
I mention Joy Stealers who go on a rampage and denounce people's
Christmas traditions/practices and do nothing to promote in the eyes of
those they are attacking the knowledge of the great sacrifice/gift that
we are really celebrating. These are the people who hammer at people
with evangelism, declaring that everyone's going to Hell and handing out
offensive Chick Tracks http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick_Tracks and
telling people that God hates Gays, when God indeed loves gays as He
loves everyone. He hates sin, and loves the sinner. It's no sin to be
gay, just as it's no sin to be a horny old straight married man. It's
just a sin to act on those proclivities and to encourage those thoughts
and allow them to run rampant. These are people who have forgotten
that God is the ultimate source of love, and Jesus the ultimate example
of love, and that if they want to win hearts, they must share the
knowledge of that love and salvation with people.
Gosh, now I'm all angry and tight inside as I think about these
counterproductive/offensive evangelism practices, ESPECIALLY with
regards to Chick Tracks.... Angry, so angry.
//Christian
Rick
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