RE: [MLUG - DISCUSSION] [MLUG][Politics] State of the Union

["Hargus, Diana" <EMAIL:PROTECTED>]

* -----Original Message-----
* From: EMAIL:PROTECTED 
* [mailto:EMAIL:PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Miller
* Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 3:44 PM
* To: MLUG Off-Topic Discussion
* Subject: RE: [MLUG - DISCUSSION] [MLUG][Politics] State of the Union
* 
* On Wed, 1 Feb 2006, Hargus, Diana wrote:
* 
* > You have been showing that you can be positive about things 
* you don't 
* > like, but this single-minded hatred of the president, is 
* not healthy.
* > Please, consider saying something nice once in a while 
* (that goes for 
* > the other side in this discussion as well).
* 
* (1) I don't have a single-minded hatred of the President and 
* all I did to evoke your accusation was to point out that one 
* should be extremely skeptical of this administration and 
* their claims.  If I say that I think the President is a liar, 
* is that an expression of hatred or a statement of a theory 
* about his behavior?
* 
* (2) I did just say something that I thought was pretty nice 
* this morning when I said that I would give him an A for his 
* speech last night (well, for the parts I heard anyway).
* 

1)	You are correct, I used the wrong word (hatred) when I was
looking for another word.  And yes, I am skeptical of the idiots in
Washington, all the idiots who think they know what is best for us. If
you say he is a liar, then it is an expression of your opinion, based
upon the facts available.
2)	And I acknowledged this later on in the course of the rant (what
else can I call it?)
 
* > Have you talked to anyone that has actually been there?  I have, I 
* > watched him pull another piece of shrapnel out of his arm. 
* Yet, there 
* > have been no purple hearts or awards for him.  While he was 
* there, he 
* > was injures 3 times: IED to the humvee he was in, gun round to the 
* > chest, and a mortar round to the wall behind his bunk. He 
* said there 
* > was no feeling like being thanked by the people over there; 
* It is the 
* > reason he will be going back in a few months again.
* 
* That's nice.  Whatever.  One man's views have almost no value 
* when you consider that there are millions of people living in 
* Iraq.  There are polls.  The polls show that they want us to leave.
* 
* Yes, I have talked to people who have been there.  But did 
* your friend wait until he got home to pull a piece of 
* shrapnel out of his arm or did you also go to Iraq.

I was providing another viewpoint to the ones you expressed.  A poll can
be phrased to frame the appropriate outcome.  It is done all the time,
you could (not that you would) create a poll with the proper newspeak
that could show that the american people are all geniuses...
As I said, he is going back this spring.  No, I was not there, but the
material came up through the scar on his arm that was not there before
he went back there last summer.  Purely anecdotal, granted, but evidence
none the less.  Also did some video chats for him and some of his
friends from around here that were there.  Thay all said pretty much the
same thing.  
 
* > If, through computer modelling and facts, I could show you that 
* > killing a child would prevent untold destruction, could you do it?
* 
* This is a common "ethical dilemma" kind of question.  The 
* problem is that I cannot know for certain that your 
* prediction is correct, but let's pretend that it is possible. 
*  The answer then is "yes" I would kill the child.  If you 
* were to say "no" then you might seem like a nice person, but 
* you are the kind of nice person who just caused "untold destruction" 
* through inaction.

This was not asked for an answer, per se, but to find the response you
would give.  It gives me a clearer picture of whom I am conversing with.

 
* > Or does a life mean something?  Before you rip at me, 
* consider this:  
* > I would dearly love not to have to be in Iraq right now.  I 
* would love 
* > to be able to restore these people's lives whom you speak 
* of in these 
* > tragedies to have their lives restored to some semblance of order.  
* > But at what cost do we do this?  What price do we put on it?  Do we 
* > bring food and medicines to a people suffering from the 
* aftereffects 
* > of a natural disaster at the cost of genocide?  I think the problem 
* > here is one of ideology and not politics....
* 
* Everyone is entitled to his opinion about priorities.  It is 
* important in any event to remember what we are missing by 
* making a certain choices. 
* Money spent on one thing is not available for other things.  
* Apparently the President just chopped $2 billion out of a 
* college loan program of some kind, which has made many 
* students unhappy.  If we spent 12 fewer days in Iraq we'd 
* save $2 billion.  That's a lot of money.

True, they will be unhappy.  But did your parents use loans to go to
school?  My father did not, yet he got it done.  If they want it badly
enough, they will find a way.  Unlike some people I know, who are on
disability and will never utilise the education (they plain and simple
do not want to work), we have others at the opposite end who do not know
what they want to do and keep going to school on loans.  There is a time
for personal responsibility.  I have been a part of the problems in the
past, and probably will be in the future, but I will say "Yes, that was
me", unlike most of the "not me" generations.

* > Yes, big money is part of the reason we are there, maybe a 
* large part, 
* > but I guess 100% humanitarianism is the only reason we should do 
* > anything.  Almost all actions can be traced back to 
* selfishness.  "It 
* > makes me feel good!"  "It is for the best!" etc.,etc., ad nauseum
* 
* I don't know why we are there.  That's all I'm saying.
* 
* If all actions can be traced to selfishness, what selfish 
* needs is our selfish President satisfying by having our 
* military fight in Iraq?
* 

Playing soldier?  Trying to look good for daddy? Ego (in a poli?It is
anybody's guess...  But, I wish I knew why you don't want us there,
perhaps because we don't know?  If we had answers, maybe we could say
more than what we are.
And thank you for the clear, concise answers.

Diana 
 
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