Re: [MLUG - DISCUSSION] Hybrid vehicles/alternative fuels

[McIntosh Jason <EMAIL:PROTECTED>]

On Feb 1, 2006, at 9:27 AM, Spurling, Shannon wrote:

I think you are a little confused. Hybrid's are not exclusively

electrically powered. They are mainly gas with a generator/battery

system to store wasted power and return it into the system. Up side is

that it gets more efficiency out of the system. Down side is that it's

still a gas vehicle. The batteries are a lot less of a burden than an

electric, maybe four common lead acid batteries as compared to a large

bank of exotic batteries for an electric.

I do realize Hybrid's aren't entirely electric (thus the name hybrid).  I apologize for not making that clearer.  However, as you say, there are additional batteries in the system.  Last I heard, there were more than 4, and they did have to be replaced.  Now, I just found this:

http://www.hybridcars.com/faq.html

which states that the batteries don't have to be replaced.  Looking at a few other articles, it does look like the batteries should last quite a while.  SO, I'm wrong on that point :)  Kinda glad I am.  Although I do wonder about recycling the batteries and the cost of doing so, as well as the cost/environmental impact of producing these batteries.

As I understand, there are two systems. One is Toyota's, where they have

the motor/generator between the transmission and engine where the

flywheel normally is. The other is what Honda and Ford use, where the

motor/generator is connected to the front of the engine like an

alternator. The transmissions get more efficient, and they use a

smaller, better designed gas power plant. You never externally charge

the batteries in it unless you are storing it for a long time or are

having problems.

Ok, that explains some things.  SO, sounds like the technology is better than I'd heard previously.

Bio-diesel is okay, but it's still diesel, and you're looking at

something similar with the switch grass ethanol. They still require some

toxic chemicals to condition the fuel, and there are handling and

delivery issues because it's not as refined as diesel or gasoline. With

Ethanol, you're looking at replacing the fuel delivery system because

it's corrosive. With Bio-Diesel you're looking at replacing the filter

and the engine has to be a high compression diesel engine in the first

place, and then there is the higher ignition point and the problem with

low temperature flowing/gelling of the fuel. I sometimes wonder if

instead of mixing Ethanol with gasoline, if they could mix ethanol with

bio-diesel and use some conditioning process to produce something less

corrosive and more flow able and combustible completely free of

petroleum. 

Hm, some notes on this - diesel engines have been around for a long while - so if you've got a diesel, biodiesel wouldn't be a big deal :)  I just wish there were more diesel engines available, even on smaller cars.  Do something more like the European auto makers - a hybrid/diesel mix.  The car here:

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10788292/

Is exactly what I'd love to have :)  I'd love to have some options there.

And, yeah - would love to see a better alternative to the diesel cold issues.  Who knows if mixing ethanol would help - but, if they did solve that, and with the hydrogen inject systems, overall, think diesels would be a great solution.

Jason

Shannon Spurling

WAN Engineer

-----Original Message-----

From: EMAIL:PROTECTED

[mailto:EMAIL:PROTECTED] On Behalf Of McIntosh

Jason

Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 9:03 AM

To: Discussion MLUG

Subject: [MLUG - DISCUSSION] Hybrid vehicles/alternative fuels

Thought I'd post some thoughts on this real quick after reading some  

of peoples comments on the state of the union speech.

First, people keep talking about Hybrid vehicles like they're a great  

way to save money and overall an excellent investment, and overall  

more environmental friendly.  I had to up a few points, and perhaps  

get some additional input:

The first thing to mention, is regarding hybrids.  What about the  

batteries?  Specifically, what about when the batteries wear out?   

What is the cost to replace them?  What is the cost/environmental  

impact of producing these batteries and recycling them?  Is a hybrid  

really that much more environmental friendly if battery replacement/ 

dumping causes as many problems as an equivalent gas engine over a  

period of time?  Is there any study of the impact in a 5/10 year  

period evaluating ALL the factors?

The other thing to mention is this - the price of producing hybrids  

and electricity is still high, unless you're talking nuclear or  

fusion reactors (fusion of course being only a dream at this point).   

SO, from an environmental standpoint, wouldn't a better system to be  

to produce cleaner burning engines/coal plants?  Or, to look at  

alternate solutions?

Personally, I'm still leaning towards Diesel/Biodiesel as renewable  

fuel sources.  Long term, I'd say hydrogen fuel systems are even  

better as they have far fewer emissions.  As an intermediate step,  

I've seen several things on hydrogen injection systems into diesel  

engines, which though initially expensive, use distilled water to  

give a big boost in performance, reduced emissions, etc. etc.

I talked a bit about one car and the concept here:

http://poetshome.com/mcintoshj/?p=432

to repost some links on diesel/hydrogen systems:

http://www.hydrogen-boost.com/Diesel.html

http://thefraserdomain.typepad.com/energy/2005/11/hydrogen_boost_.html

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/11/hydrogenenhance.html

Cheers!

Jason

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|(Attributed to Linus Torvalds, somewhere in a posting)            |

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