Re: [MLUG - DISCUSSION] More on Pascal's wager [was: Famous atheistchanges his mind]

[Stephen Montgomery-Smith <EMAIL:PROTECTED>]

Mike Miller wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Jan 2005, Stephen Montgomery-Smith wrote:
> 
>> Rick Buford wrote:
>>
>>>> This one woman is probably responsible for driving England out of 
>>>> France, and had she not done so there is no doubt in my mind that 
>>>> our present history would be very very different - for example, I 
>>>> think that the present day USA would be completely different in a 
>>>> manner that cannot at all be predicted.
>>>
>>>
>>> While discussing this Joan of Arc, perhaps Hitler would be a good 
>>> counterpoint. This man drove France out of France, most of Europe out 
>>> of their homes, and given a few more years unchecked, probably would 
>>> have conquered the planet. Does this make him a "hand of God" too?
>>
>>
>> I think Hitler's power could much more easily be attributed to the 
>> hand of Satan than to the hand of God.
> 
> 
> I could see that one coming.  As you said earlier, Stephen, Joan of 
> Arc's success also was attributed to Satan.  Once you allow yourself to 
> accept a mystical belief system, everything in life is potentially 
> controlled by powerful unseen forces of good and evil.  People who 
> disagree believe that there is much more to it than simple disagreement 
> - the opponent has sided with the devil!  Today we hear that many 
> Islamic people believe that "America is the great Satan," or somesuch (I 
> have to trust the translations because I don't speak Arabic!).  Can't we 
> just accept that good and bad things happen that we cannot control?  
> There is never a need to evoke metaphysical forces to explain things we 
> don't understand fully.
> 

I think that Hitler and especially some of his cronies explicitly sought 
the aid of the occult or other specifically anti-Christian higher 
powers.  Even their choice of symbol, the swastika, which can either be 
seen as a Hindu fertility symbol, or as a broken rendition of the cross, 
is a slap in the face of an historically Christian nation. 
(Unfortunately many German Christians were taken in by Hitler's deceit - 
although Dietrich Bonhoeffer stands as a powerful and true testament 
against the tyranny of Hitler).

In any case, it is clear that Hitler made clear use of higher powers, 
and so it is not unreasonable to attribute his success to some kind of 
"god", and so the question simply becomes "which one?"

What is very interesting about the Second World War (and actually most 
every other war) is the extent to how much strange coincidences helped 
one side or another.  To my mind the turning point of the war was in 
1940 when Hitler decided to bomb London instead of bombing the British 
airfields.  Had Hitler just continued a few more weeks to bomb the 
airfields, it is likely that the British Royal Air Force would have been 
defeated, and that Hitler would have invaded soon after that.  But 
because one German airplane had accidently dropped bombs on London, and 
a day or so later the British had retaliated with a few bombs on Berlin, 
that Hitler became so angry that he ordered the German bombing of 
London.  While this was very unfortunate for people living in London, 
the head of the British Air Force, Dowding, described this as the 
"miracle" that saved Britain.  Had this strange sequence of events not 
taken place, Hitler would have taken Britain, probably would have 
succeeded in Russia, and the USA which might have later entered the war 
would be essentially have no hope of defeating Hitler.

I can see that many people of this time would have seen this as an 
answered prayer.

> The history of human progress shows, I think, that casting aside the 
> gods and demons in favor of skeptical and scientific perspectives has 
> always been a good thing.  We can retain everything that is good in 
> religion without the mystical hogwash.  I see Fundamentalism and 
> Literalism, in any religion, as a dangerous step backward.  Unitarianism 
> is the sort of thing we should be trying to promote within Christianity.
> 

I don't think so.  For example, I see many of the great advances made by 
the Western civilization as coming from some kind of theistic belief. 
For example, Columbus felt compelled to find his way across the Atlantic 
because of a divine sense that he should - although many others also 
believed the world was round at that time, I think no one else thought 
the journey possible.  I think that also Isaac Newton and his ilk felt 
compelled to search for universal laws because a God of order must have 
created them (as opposed for example with Hindu ideas that would predict 
a chaotic and unpredictable world).  It is only in recent times that 
scientists have felt that God should no longer be a part of their world 
view.

Stephen
_______________________________________________
discussion mailing list
EMAIL:PROTECTED
http://mlug.missouri.edu/mailman/listinfo/discussion