Re: [MLUG - DISCUSSION] Re: [MLUG] guess what

[Jason McIntosh <EMAIL:PROTECTED>]

A lot of it is the language features and how the server systems 
implement them.  Ever seen the API's for Java?  They're some of the 
best documented and easy to work with set of API's I've seen.  I'm a 
HUGE fan of the javadocs system.
As for the specific API's that make Java nice, a lot of it has to do 
with object indirection, the naming interfaces and libraries available 
for it.  I'd imagine any language given time and effort could compare, 
but Java has that stuff now, and has had it.  It's also hard to 
describe all of this as it gets kinda difficult for even me to explain. 
  But, here's a simple case:

Tomcat server, which runs Servlet objects.  You can run this on one 
server, which ONLY stores objects which handle output processing.  
Another server, an application server, runs business logic components 
and does caching.  The Display objects talk to the other server, the 
application server, VERY easily in java using RMI, JNDI, or any other 
set of look ups.  XML communications makes transferring data VERY easy. 
  Further, the application server and the web server don't even have to 
be the same OS, and you don't have to mess with CORBA to get objects to 
transfer over or do anything funky.  Or at least, not too terribly 
funky.  You can get VERY complex with certain scenarios.  Anyways, the 
business object layer then would talk to the database, handle object 
loading and passing, adding indirection, caching, and optimization.  
This lets developers work on the display end without having to see how 
say a business policy was processed, or what the database format is.  
Now, of course, this is quite a bit trickier to code, even this one 
simple example, but on the other hand, you get a lot of advantages, in 
that you can add MULTIPLE servers in each layer, and not have to 
replicate your code, worry about different configurations, etc.  the 
display servers, assuming they were multiple, don't have to understand 
or know where the application servers are, or that there are multiples 
of them - it just uses the API's for JNDI to do object lookups and to 
obtain the information.  And then, to scale the system, you can just 
add in more servers.

Of course, this is a fairly simple example, doesn't explain that some 
of this can be a BEAST to setup and get running properly, that the 
initial configuration is often a royal pain, that some of those 
application servers to get support can be expensive, and numerous other 
things.  But, when you consider the size of an enterprise, i.e. 10,000+ 
users with a MASSIVE amount of data, all of a sudden costs aren't quite 
so important, or at least, the cost of delays, inefficiencies, or other 
issues is MUCH more expensive then getting that all setup and working 
right.

I'm hoping this sorta explains it.  And it's not that other languages 
couldn't do so, but it's more other languages AREN'T doing so, other 
than .Net.  Java already has the tools, the API framework, the 
libraries, etc. which allows all of this to be implemented.  The only 
thing Java really needs to do is simplify some of the stuff so newer 
programmers can hop in without having to read a library, or figure out 
what some of the stupid Sun documentation really is saying.  Sun's 
documentation generally is lousy, but the Java API's as a general rule 
are great, and there are some REALLY good Java books out there.  Sun 
just seems to like to make things difficult for most people so they can 
get support contract money out of them.  Doesn't mean the product isn't 
good, just wish it were easier to get into.
Jason

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On Apr 1, 2004, at 1:41 PM, Michael wrote:

> Prehaps so. I don't really see these as anything you can't do without 
> Java as easy or easier but I'm willing to be proven wrong. Why is Java 
> better for application servers than Python, Perl, Ruby, or any 
> otherhigh-level language. Tho I think that also gets into Java the 
> language vrs Java the enterprise system. I believe it was JKing that 
> mention Jython which is Python compiled into Java byte codes. I 
> haven't looked to see if Perl or Ruby have done such a thing too but I 
> have seen other languages implemented that way. Are there language 
> features that make Java the best or is it mostly the extra tools that 
> are available for Java?
>
> Maybe a better question. What could other languages learn from Java 
> to, in your opinion, be as useful. Is it possible to describe those 
> nice features you mentioned in more details rather than buzzwords?
>
>> As a note, Java may be a bit trickier to code for in an enterprise 
>> situation, but it's also one hell of a lot better in an enterprise 
>> situation when you consider all that it can do.  Look at the concept 
>> of Application Servers, which run Java in memory, VERY optimized, 
>> allow caching, clustering solutions, machine independence, 
>> multi-layered and business logic independence in a relatively easily 
>> implemented manner, and MANY other features, and you're bashing Java 
>> without really understanding where Java comes in.
>> Java is an AWESOME enterprise system.  .NET is one of the few things 
>> currently available which can compete with it, feature and ease of 
>> use wise.  Which is of course why .NET was created and is becoming as 
>> popular as it is.
>> I'm not saying Python is a bad language, but I AM saying Java is a 
>> good language, and bashing it as "buzz word" or whatever means you 
>> really don't understand the technology and features set behind it.  
>> I've been doing C programming and Java programming for quite a while. 
>>  For a lot of things, Java just blows other languages away.
>
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