Re: [MLUG - DISCUSSION] affirmative action (was "Fox News vs. NPR")

[Michael <EMAIL:PROTECTED>]

>A somewhat unrelated point:
>
>A single mother working at Burger King made choices in life that put her in
>that situation. She deserves no more assisstance than a motorcyclist who
>chose not to wear a helmet and left a family behind or me if I can't pay my
>rent because I gave all my money to the homeless.
>
>Everyone lives with the choices they make in life. I have made some very
>poor decisions that hurt me in some form or fashion - some I've had to live
>wit, some I've bailed myself out of, and some I was bailed out of.
>
>When someone else bailed me out it was a blessing. It was not a right.
>Blessings come in many forms and may not always be equal. That's life.
>
>I have compassion on working single mothers and certainly am willing to help
>where I'm able. I just don't think it's a right - a belief it seems welfare
>reinforces. I certainly don't have the answers for welfare but have seen
>some good ideas (such as the below post).
>
>So what did people do before welfare existed?
>
>  
>
Very harsh dude. Nobody can predict if all the choices they make are 
good. To not allow them to recover from mistakes keeps everything at a 
shitty level because I'd say almost everyone is going to make mistakes.. 
probably big mistakes during their lives. What if the woman had a good 
job that got shipped to India and her husband of 10 years was hit by a 
drunk driver leaving her with three kids to support and little time for 
reeeducation or job hunting? Sure she could possibly dig herself out of 
the hole but probably not without a lot of luck and without ignoring her 
children that'd then grow up to be drug addicts whining about how mommy 
didn't love them. Shit happens.

My own example is that it hurts me that I never had any real shitty 
jobs.. fast food and stuff like that.. so people look at my resume now 
and turn me down for any low paying jobs because I'm 25 and everything 
I've done looks impressive to people who manager a Burger King.. so 
impressive they think I couldn't manage an uneducated job. Or I couldn't 
have predicted when I started school that I'd have a roommate die 
dropping loads of extra stress on me making me have a nervous breakdown 
totally fucking up my academic career. Yes, these things are recoverable 
and I am working on it.. but  I'm only managing because I have some 
really good friends helping me out. If not for that I would probably be 
homeless or a criminal because the government doesn't offer me any kind 
of support and I don't really have much in the way of like family to 
fall back on.

I'm not saying people have a right to be bailed out.. I'm saying that as 
a society it is beneficial to the society as a whole to bail people out 
unless they are hopeless cases in which case we should kick them out of 
the country.

Before welfare existed people starved, were punished for poaching in the 
King's forest, got free meals from churches, became criminals, etc. None 
of those sound like good social plans to me. Well maybe the churches 
providing for the poor would be a good idea but the simple truth is that 
that sort of thing isn't really very fool proof. A lot of churches don't 
do that kind of thing, some people (like myself) wouldn't go to a church 
even if starving to death because we're not willing to accept their 
faith, and a lot of people (again like me) that hate taking charity. 
Churches and other community groups should provide some relief to people 
in need but the government should provide some level of ultimate safety 
net because it's cheaper to do so than to pour money into prisons, 
scraping dead bodies off the ground, etc. Again I'm suggesting 
assistance for people that are working or are willing to work and not 
for druggies, people unwilling to work, etc.

If I was really starving I'd probably be a huge threat because I am 
extremely intelligent and the easiest way out of poverty is crime. Once 
I got a taste for it I think I'd like it. I don't know if that's true 
for everyone but I expect for many it has a very primal appeal - 
especially to men. Hunting my fellow man and getting away with it would 
be very exciting I think. I don't really think it's just me.. look at 
the popularity of violent movies and games.. especially those intent on 
criminal behavior such as Grand Theft Auto. If I was ever arrested I'd 
be an even worse threat because it'd remove all fear of punishment from 
me and make me extremely angry. At that point I'd almost certainly be 
taking human lives just to prove I could. I'd probably eat human flesh, 
rape, steal, blow stuff up, etc just because I could and would no longer 
have that moral boundry to keep me in line. All kept in check just 
because I've never had a real excuse to let that behavior lose. I think 
at least a good portion of us would react something like that to true 
poverty. The same kinds of behaviors people let lose when they become 
addicted to drugs.. letting lose their inhibitions and morals. The rest 
would probably roll over and die. Neither is going to be beneficial to 
society. :)

Currently we punish people for trying to work, so many just stay on 
welfare. They make less working than on welfare and lose their free 
child care and other benefits. At least my system would award people for 
trying to work or improve their education.

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