RE: [MLUG - DISCUSSION] computer and car prices (was Re: [MLUG])

["Ross, Matt" <EMAIL:PROTECTED>]

> > Look at miles before repair experienced in the mid 60's compared
> > to modern cars.  I believe you'll find that our parents weren't
> > crazy when they talked about how much better cars were in their
> > day.
> 
> I can't speak for your parents, but *my* parents would never have
> said that.  All of the non-anecodtal data point against your
> conclusion.  Consumer Reports has been tracking reliability for over

I won't get into the discusson on how reliable a corporate agency is in
these matters..
Claims refer to things broken that shouldn't have been.  This indicates that
the manufacturers are doing a better job with quality control, not with how
long the car lasts.

> 20 years now, and they claim that reports of problems in the first
> year have gone down by a factor of three.  Seriously, *everything* 
> has gotten better, although some things have gotten better faster 
> than others.  Electrical systems, for example, have not gotten much 
> more reliable, but they have gotten a lot more complicated.

Complicated != better.  I've forgotten the source, but its rather well known
that simplicity is directly proportional to reliability.

> With all due respect, I don't believe your assertion, although I'd 
> be thrilled to see some hard data on this.

I'm not due any respect, this is little more than an informed rant. :-)

> Hmm...as I remember it, *nobody* drove 55 except in oddball
> high-enforcement places for years before they finally lifted the
> limit.  I don't see much sign of stricter cops, although the 
> possibility is there since today's speeder is likely to be doing 
> 85 or 90 when back in the day it would be 70 or 75, and doing 85 or

Actually, most of the problem drivers today grew up when the limit was 55,
unlike those who grew up when the limit was usually 70-80.  They're used to
driving 75mph and watching for cops, and this still hasn't phased out, we've
only been in the new limit system for a few years.

> 90 is probably really asking for trouble in an absolute sense.  For
> that matter, if cops in Missouri have gotten *stricter*, they must 
> have been driving behind people and forcing them to drive faster in 
> the olden days; the state police are almost invisible on I-70 as far 
> as I can tell.

Interesting, I thought I was the one depending on anechdotal ;-)
I usually see at least three people pulled over on my way to Columbia, and
about 6 on my way home from classes within Jefferson City.  Of course, of
the 6, 5 are usually pulled over due to racial profiling, but don't tell
anyone I said that... (Its the only reason I can figure that 50% of JC's
active cops are within a block of our "historically black" college.)

What I'm specifically refering to is these periodic "crackdowns" the HP
announces, usually before holidays.  Listen to the radio the week before St.
Patrics day if you've not heard of this, I garuntee there will be an
announcement then.
 
> Well, I didn't grow up around here, but an open container violation 
> was always big trouble back in the day where I lived.

It was punishible by some heavy fines, with the option of jail time. The
cops just didn't see it as a big problem, so they let people off for it.
Now they're not even allowed to let you off.

> Seat belts did not always have shoulder harnesses; that's a
> non-trivial improvement.  Enforcement of seat belt laws has always 
> been spotty; in many places you cannot be pulled over just for a 
> seat belt violation.  Use *has* gone up, though.

Use has gone up due to enforcement, both positive and negative (advertising
to future drivers and fines respectively.)

> Actually, I just checked, and there aren't any more Geo anythings 
> any more.  If we're talking about the old Geo Metro, that would be
> the Suzuki Swift, and that's a dead car in the 2002 model year.
> A 4-door Hyundai Accent should run you $11,000.  For $15K, you could
> buy a Ford Focus.  I'm absolutely certain I'd be safer in any Ford
> car these days than a Model T.

Based on?  As you've pointed out, there is an utter lack of comparison
between the two in terms of safety.
Granted, with the addition of seat belts, the improvements in glass, and the
overall car length, a modern Ford would probably do much better in
protecting its driver.

> > Actually, this would have been the 1920's.
> 
> Yes, I know that.  But with all due respect, I find the idea that a 
> car from the 1920s would be safe by any measure so weird that I 
> tried to update the comparison to something more reasonable.

I put forth the Model T as a specific comparison with the Geo line of
tupperware..err..cars.

> The Geo was your idea, not mine.  Obviously it's not a safe car by
> today's standards, but today's standards are a lot better than the
> no standards of the good old days.

I picked the Geo because it matched roughly the target audience of the Model
T.  I don't know the cars that have come out in the past two years well
enough to know what is in that price range.  I picked the Model T to begin
with because its a fairly clear structural difference. 
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